-*- coding: utf-8 -*- BartholomewJS ​Greetings, everyone. Xah Lee ​morn Bartho Xah Lee ​how's going? BartholomewJS ​#13 How to deal with Runes on different operating systems and how to handle non-UTF8 input when Runes are expected. BartholomewJS ​@Xah Lee You changed the schedule, if I didn't look now I thought you would start in 40 minutes. Xah Lee ​ok Xah Lee ​yeah, very sorry about that Xah Lee ​was supposed to be 9am Xah Lee ​but yesterday slept late, changed it to 10 Xah Lee ​but woke early. so thinking 9. but then thought that confused people. so maybe 9:30 is good for both 9 and 10. lol Xah Lee ​it's so bad. BartholomewJS ​@Xah Lee No problem, but sometimes I miss the stream because of too late correct scheduling. Xah Lee ​yeah. i should stop doing that BartholomewJS ​@Xah Lee I know how it is to not have a regular sleep/life schedule, but if you really want to grow your channel you won't be able to avoid to have particular schedules for things. BartholomewJS ​@Xah Lee Because that makes it easier for every viewer to follow you. BartholomewJS ​@Xah Lee I am sure that more people would join more regularly if they always knew the correct times. Xah Lee ​yeah. maxirater ​More people would watch this stream if you did it at night time so people can watch it after work BartholomewJS ​@Xah Lee If I were you, I would try to find a time where the probability is very high you are not sleeping, no matter the sleep schedule. BartholomewJS ​@Xah Lee There is usually some dead spot in the day where someone never or almost never sleeps. maxirater ​you get lots of views, 100 to 200 but only like 5 to 10 live viewers BartholomewJS ​@maxirater Time is relative. 😂 Seamus Slack ​helllo BartholomewJS ​@maxirater His morning is my night time. BartholomewJS ​@Seamus Slack Greetings. maxirater ​#BartholomewJS I notice that Xah has a lot of russian viewers which is like opposite time to California Xah Lee ​brb in 5 Seamus Slack ​@BartholomewJS Thanks. Same to you. Derek Ackley ​Hey finally made it for another live stream Derek Ackley ​[message retracted] Welcome to live chat! Remember to guard your privacy and abide by our community guidelines. Derek Ackley ​Being in Ohio, US (EST) I usually only catch him at work on occasion or at night before I fall asleep BartholomewJS ​You just went online. @Xah Lee GrinDeg ​Hi! BartholomewJS ​@Xah Lee What time did you start the stream? ZitronCrazy ​hey Xah BartholomewJS ​@Xah Lee You're up for 1 minute for us. maxirater ​you just came on 20 seconds ago GrinDeg ​I had a notifications for 7 minutes, but stream didn't start Seamus Slack ​It seems like the live stream lagged to get out to every one. I got a delay too. BartholomewJS ​@Xah Lee The reason for the topic is that I was writing an app for Windows including Runes and only after that I found out that Windows is very weird about text encoding. maxirater ​I think windows is the only OS to not support UTF8 BartholomewJS ​@Xah Lee Windows broke the UTF-8 processing of the input. BartholomewJS ​@Xah Lee I changed to UTF-8 (beta) on Windows. BartholomewJS ​@Xah Lee I did not ask UNiX people, I read Wikipedia and it said that Windows is weird about. GrinDeg ​wikipedia is unix-propaganda Duncan Holm ​We will be using UTF-8 until we die. No more transitions Duncan Holm ​Yeah, I have a few still Seamus Slack ​LISP: I've gotten to the point where the ())))))) doesn't give me highway hypnosis. maxirater ​So is UTF-16 deprecated? BartholomewJS ​@Xah Lee It did not work on Windows. It was printing useless characters. Seamus Slack ​UFT-X is a taxonomy for glyphs expressed in binary. BartholomewJS ​@Xah Lee Windows-1252 - what is universal about this? How is this normal? Seamus Slack ​@Xah Lee what is CHZ Chinese encoding maxirater ​what is the rule of thumb for strings? should we adapt to programming language or OS? Yisrael Dov L ​@Xah Lee use eshell Seamus Slack ​Chinese and Japanese most Asian scripts are in UTF-8 and there are even more glyphs in 16 and 32; it's meant to be expanded. In china it's down to the government to decided what they use. Yisrael Dov L ​Why is sudo complex ? Yisrael Dov L ​@Xah Lee What are you talking about ?! I use man every day. Seamus Slack ​@Xah Lee if this is going to became a UNIX bashing hour i'm going to leave. I'm not interested in problems if you don't have solutions. Rudolf Kral ​In my experience, man is more comfortable to use than --help. There is no conformity, every programmer writes --help how he wants, the text is often lacking proper explanations Yisrael Dov L ​I had to give some one restricted SSH access last week! BartholomewJS ​@Rudolf Kral Agreed. Rudolf Kral ​And man is on default kinda run through less Seamus Slack ​@Rudolf Kral man or --help it's just syntactic sugar Yisrael Dov L ​@Xah Lee you aren't talking about configuring sudo you are talking about just permissions... BartholomewJS ​@Xah Lee No idea why you find configuring "sudo" so hard. Either I we misunderstand what you mean or you are complaining about a process I would literally need 5 minutes, max. Rudolf Kral ​@Seamus Slack I think man forces me to write in a specific way, unlike --help Rudolf Kral ​Forces - maybe not so much, makes it easier to write in a specific way Yisrael Dov L ​@BartholomewJS yeah @Xah Lee should keep talking about keyboards and his SJ gang... Yisrael Dov L ​I mean it's not like Mac OS isn't BSD. Yisrael Dov L ​Oh and it's not like @Xah Lee isn't using `sudo` and man in a bash shell on his mac .... Seamus Slack ​@Rudolf Kral Mostly I would agree. Help is meant to give you faster advice. But if `--help` just shows the man page (lazy) it's not a big change. Rudolf Kral ​@Seamus Slack Agreed Yisrael Dov L ​Mac is not the most progressive, they have old version of emacs, php, etc... BartholomewJS ​@Xah Lee Do you think Apple is better than Microsoft? maxirater ​I think BSD is even more obsessive about being compatible with unix, I think Mac uses BSD userspace stuff Yisrael Dov L ​@Xah Lee is talking about Mac/Apple today. Mac used to be usable for ever, Last computer I had was a 10 year old macbook, then they started messing with sudo so I quit BartholomewJS ​@Xah Lee Windows is known for extreme backward compatability. I don't remember exactly, but I think it has even compatability with F13+ keys, as far as I know. Yisrael Dov L ​@maxirater Mac OS is bsd with a different GUI... dingo dingeroo ​I think xah just likes mac for karabiner 😉 Yisrael Dov L ​@BartholomewJS windows isn't backward compatible, it's just backwards. maxirater ​@Yisrael Dov L thats what Ive heard BartholomewJS ​@Yisrael Dov L To be precise, part of the kernel is based on BSD, but the rest is modifications and additions. BartholomewJS ​@Yisrael Dov L That, too. Yisrael Dov L ​@BartholomewJS their standard tools are mostly the bsd tools and not custom ( or the gnu ) tools... This message is held for review. dingo dingeroo ​To be fair, the people who say linux is "better" ARE in a cult. Linux is so far behind in so many things Yisrael Dov L ​The kernel is open source, ( or it was ) I installed "Darwin" a while ago... Yisrael Dov L ​Windows is a legacy component. Jos van Well ​Hi BartholomewJS ​@Xah Lee Why do I have to treat an OS special? There is a thing in German that is called "Extrawurst".. You should look that one up. Yisrael Dov L ​@Xah Lee , your credibility is going down the drain... Yisrael Dov L ​@Xah Lee Embrace Extend and Extinguish is a real MS tactic Rudolf Kral ​@Xah Lee well, you said that Unix culture is dead, so things you are talking about are things of the past... We can't follow them BartholomewJS ​@Xah Lee It means something like "special/extra sausage" and addresses people or things that need extra special treatment, because they think they are special. Yisrael Dov L ​"embrace, extend, and exterminate",[2] is a phrase that the U.S. DOJ found[ was used internally by MS to describe its strategy for entering product categories ... Yisrael Dov L ​involving widely used standards, extending those standards with proprietary capabilities, and then using those differences to strongly disadvantage its competitors. Seamus Slack ​@BartholomewJS yes all OS are baloney Yisrael Dov L ​OK GTG dingo dingeroo ​With regards to open source, hwo is "embrace extend extinguish" different from just forking a project? So many people are scared of microsoft killing linux, but it's your choice maxirater ​I think a lot of oriental countries were forced to use chinese characters as the standard character set, like Japan and Korea, so chinese characters are the standard BartholomewJS ​@maxirater Since when is East Asia oriental? maxirater ​since like 4000 years ago dingo dingeroo ​Since it's in the orient? lol BartholomewJS ​It's far away from the orient. I don't know what crack you are on, guys. 😁 infomatec ​@Xah Lee, if you don't have the chance to own your actual Mac, what operating system would you have chosen (or or bought) in this case ? dingo dingeroo ​From wikipedia: "The Orient is a historical term for the East, traditionally comprising anything that belongs to the Eastern world, in relation to Europe," dingo dingeroo ​Is it to the west of europe? BartholomewJS ​@dingo dingeroo Exactly. Therefore East Asia is far away from the orient. dingo dingeroo ​You trolling dawg? BartholomewJS ​@dingo dingeroo By that logic America is oriental, as well. Seamus Slack ​@Xah Lee 2005 is young for UTF-8. And China just chooses what they want; it doesn't reflect technically on UTF-8. BartholomewJS ​You can't just go on forever to the east and count in everything on the way as "oriental". That does not make sense, at all. @dingo dingeroo maxirater ​@Xah you still havent told us how we handle string encoding dingo dingeroo ​Of course you can, that's the whole point of the term. Culture to the east is foreign from european / western culture tjor ​is emacs dead? BartholomewJS ​@Xah Lee I agree and disagree on different parts. maxirater ​no, I am in Tacoma Washington Duncan Holm ​@Xah Lee did you stick your LISP stickers onto anything? BartholomewJS ​@dingo dingeroo If you were right, the word would be utterly pointless, as the whole world would be oriental, except Europe. It does not make sense at all. GrinDeg ​[message retracted] BartholomewJS ​@dingo dingeroo Ask any normal person "what do you think of when you hear the word 'oriental'?" NOBODY ever will answer Japan or China. Everyone thinks of turban heads. GrinDeg ​@Xah Lee In Russia we use UTF-8 and Windows-1251 dingo dingeroo ​I don't know where you are at, but in the US oriental means asian dingo dingeroo ​I would say middle eastern for them, not oriental BartholomewJS ​@dingo dingeroo In US more than 40% of people doubt evolution. I don't trust such a nation. maxirater ​Go does not use null terminated bytes, it uses unicode arrays, right? BartholomewJS ​@dingo dingeroo The US is one of the most Christian countries in the world. And it shows. dingo dingeroo ​Yep, I'm Christian 😃 BartholomewJS ​@dingo dingeroo I rest my case. dingo dingeroo ​You must hate all of europe then too dingo dingeroo ​where are you from? African nation? tjor ​yinwang think golang not good Seamus Slack ​In my life Christians always threaten to kill me that's why I don't leave my house dingo dingeroo ​Lol BartholomewJS ​@dingo dingeroo No, only the sh - - i - - t countries that don't provide any progress to the world, except cheap work force. Seamus Slack ​and it thinks I'm joking. The inhumanity! BartholomewJS ​@Seamus Slack So are you joking or not after all? Seamus Slack ​@BartholomewJS I only leave my house for supplies. dingo dingeroo ​Christians are a really dumb choice for an enemy 😕 dingo dingeroo ​Kids want to be edgy though BartholomewJS ​@dingo dingeroo Except they chose oneself for their enemy. maxirater ​Xah- you need to organize your site better, you have to do a web search to find your own content Seamus Slack ​@dingo dingeroo I didn't make them my enemy. They say they want to physical violate my. So I stay away form those sick people. dingo dingeroo ​?? dingo dingeroo ​Are you high dawg? Duncan Holm ​@maxirater it's very efficient to use search engine so might as well leverage it BartholomewJS ​@Seamus Slack I think this dingo is very high on some very impure crack. Seamus Slack ​@BartholomewJS yes you have to go top shelf always. (joke) BartholomewJS ​@dingo dingeroo Btw. ask a US citizen which countries are neighbouring to France. How many will be able to list any correct country? BartholomewJS ​@Seamus Slack I reach so high, I take products from the ceiling. Seamus Slack ​@BartholomewJS The gravity on this planet is getting to me too. I can't wait until the mission is over. dingo dingeroo ​First you attack nationality, then religion, and now geographical knowledge. I don't know why you hate the US my dude, but I think you're just being edgy. dingo dingeroo ​I don't see how any of it is relevant to any point BartholomewJS ​@dingo dingeroo I don't hate anyone and I certainly did not express hate in this chat. I am just explaining what is wrong. If you misunderstood what I meant, I am sorry about that. Seamus Slack ​I live in US. The people here are some un-holy mix of religious weirdos and H-1 visas; always been this way since Pligrums. BartholomewJS ​@dingo dingeroo That said, I don't see how it is wrong to attack ideas/concepts. The only thing one shouldn't do is attacking personalities. Ideas should always be open to criticism. Seamus Slack ​it might be N-1 visas i confuse the 2 dingo dingeroo ​I have no problem with criticizing idea, but it should be done in a constructive way. It seems like you just don't like Americans. BartholomewJS ​@Seamus Slack I don't live in the US, but I consume a lot of US focused media and I have a few American friends I talk to often. dingo dingeroo ​You don't mind using the technology our country made though 😉 dingo dingeroo ​Guess we're not too dumb Seamus Slack ​England made computers. Learn history. BartholomewJS ​@dingo dingeroo What technology did the US make? I only see "Made in China", pal. BartholomewJS ​@dingo dingeroo Do you think that Joseph Smith was a con-man? Seamus Slack ​Also the space program US stole from the old Weimar Republic. GrinDeg ​@Xah Lee no, ascii is Windows-1252. Windows-1251 is Cyrillic dingo dingeroo ​Yeah, I don't like Joseph Smith. And for the record, Google and the internet are a good start. BartholomewJS ​@Xah Lee Don't worry, we don't take anything personally. Else I would be never joining your streams, as I am one of the Linux shills you always flame about. 😁 Seamus Slack ​The Swiss invented the internet. What are you on? BartholomewJS ​@Seamus Slack He is high on America. dingo dingeroo ​Google it brah Seamus Slack ​Ohhh you're one of the folk-socialist swedes. I bet your reporting to google right now. You're trying to take Xah's stream down. dingo dingeroo ​Seamus is such a troll maxirater ​emacs is 'worse is better' which is why Jamie made XEmacs which forced GNU Emacs to improve dingo dingeroo ​You crack me up dude BartholomewJS ​@dingo dingeroo When seeing you both, I tend to agree you being the troll rather than @Seamus Slack . dingo dingeroo ​I'm trolling by saying America invented the internet? Literally search it Duncan Holm ​chat sucks today. typical nerd bickering! GrinDeg ​@Xah Lee if C syntax is bad, what syntax is good? Lisp? Seamus Slack ​Yeah I just mentally infirm. (don't leave my house) But the other one is the swede. Seamus Slack ​No internet was CERN and Swiss. They did it to stop lousing things of floppies. Seamus Slack ​@GrinDeg Yes ()))))))))))))) is great Seamus Slack ​Actually on the topic of emacs, Is there a way to read man pages like a man-page-mode or something? dingo dingeroo ​M-x man works Seamus Slack ​I blame the swedes. They are going to kill everyone just like they did bat in the 30s in Europe. dingo dingeroo ​Ugh those swedes 😲 Duncan Holm ​man pages can't even be read effectively in terminal unless you know the keybindings for the less/more pager. they're a losing battle in terms of adoption mat5ch ​hi there Seamus Slack ​yes the swedes are evil mat5ch ​xah lee ranting again 😀 Seamus Slack ​@Xah Lee git lab or bit bucket mat5ch ​hate for linux 😨 dingo dingeroo ​Moral of the stream: xah loves linux and open source Seamus Slack ​:rage quit: This message is held for review. mat5ch ​fuck, this is some sad stream woo16202 ​F BartholomewJS ​When's the stream tomorrow probably? maxirater ​you didnt teach anything today, please code something live tomorrow BartholomewJS ​@maxirater He taught us the ultimate rage. maxirater ​@BartholomewJS he sure did Pablo M ​Jaron lLanier explains it very well... Jeremiah Junken ​love the video title. :-) Pablo M ​Anger or fight works. Pablo M ​Human nature. Jeremiah Junken ​There is the "Unix Hater's" book... This message is held for review. Jeremiah Junken ​But a channel named "Linux sucks ass" would probably be really popular. :-) mat5ch ​all this linux hate will be retaliated by RMS soon mat5ch ​😀 Jeremiah Junken ​THE RISE OF BSD BEGINS. MIT > GPL :-) Pablo M ​Ha ha you're doing it on purpose. I was worried... maxirater ​Im hoping FSF might actually made something new now that rms is gone cat44 ​Haha i arrived at the right time Duncan Holm ​TOOT dingo dingeroo ​@Xah Lee What do you think of BSD? Jeremiah Junken ​max: this is where they become another platform of non-hacker spokesholes. dingo dingeroo ​FSF will just be run by SJWs now 100% RMS was a harcore lefty, but at least he wasn't fully on board with their agenda Jeremiah Junken ​dingo: amen mat5ch ​RMS is the least hipocrite amonst them i guess Jeremiah Junken ​mat - rms was a straight up geek, concerned with details, nuances, context. That's entirely antithetical to the feels over rationality crowd who are presently a cultural tribe on the war path. mat5ch ​@Xah Lee : what do you think about subscription models or saas? BartholomewJS ​@dingo dingeroo If FSF will be run by SJWs, I will open my own foundation. Pablo M ​I hope they are not transcribing today! BartholomewJS ​@Pablo M They are alwys. Jeremiah Junken ​bart - we need one that connects free software, free expression, and free speech. BartholomewJS ​@Jeremiah Junken You are expressing my dream. dingo dingeroo ​BSD license might be the way to go if that's what you want 😃 mat5ch ​@Jeremiah Junken i see your point and maybe i didnt get my point straight since engl is not my native language Pablo M ​@BartholomewJS Then Xah is going to have a call 😃 Jeremiah Junken ​"software as a service" BartholomewJS ​@Xah Lee If I would need to pay for actual free software, I would do it. And I believe I am not the only one. BartholomewJS ​@Xah Lee The problem is that free software has to be costfree, else it would not be entirely free. It is part of the concept. So making "freeness" an argument against it, is not a lot sensical. dingo dingeroo ​@BartholomewJS At that point is becomes ideological though. And since most people don't care about the "politics of software" in either direction, you won't get many good developers. BartholomewJS ​@dingo dingeroo So we should try to make people care. BartholomewJS ​@Xah Lee If you have to pay a subscription for everything, the market would break down, as nobody could afford to subscribe to 100 different things they want/need. BartholomewJS ​@Xah Lee Imagine every YouTube channel was not "free" (trigger word), but you would need to pay a subscription to every channel. You would have 0 views, if that happened. BartholomewJS ​@Xah Lee Thanks to your channel being "free" you have an audience at all. dingo dingeroo ​BSDs are probably the future of open source in the traditional sense. Since GPL is run by a big group and can be manipulated and changed - primarily by people who don't actually care about software dingo dingeroo ​Free as in freedom is more or less dead these days dingo dingeroo ​Even the "enthusiasts" so called still use youtube / google etc in a post snowden world, and asking EVEN them to stop isn't working Jeremiah Junken ​xah - open source / free culture is a mythology with a narrative and spokespeople -- who get paid more than the people who actually code the open source software mat5ch ​i think i got you btw @xah lee. im not against subscription based services but its sad that this becomes the standard and not all of these services are fair to the user dingo dingeroo ​This whole thing assumes software is a good thing. Why would you be dead broke and make software for an ideology that strives to produce software you can't get paid for? Base morals are off Jan Christoph Ebersbach ​[message retracted] ZitronCrazy ​bye Xah mat5ch ​lol mat5ch ​cu xah BartholomewJS ​Goodbye Xah Lee Say something... 0/200